What Happens When You Die? (NDE's, Heaven & Hell)

Am I immediately in heaven after I die? My buddy Cole, he had an endi, he died. This is how he remembers what happened. Paul's saying the same thing in the Bible. That he had this experience. What happens in heaven? Well, price, similar stuff to what happens here. But I know you guys. And will you know your wife? What does hell look like? Is it a real place? Like Satan is depicted as the landlord of hell when he's an inhabitant. Did Jesus, when he died, did he go there? When Jesus was dead, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. What about people who haven't heard about Jesus? So there's no way we all haven't had these moments. Maybe it's in the middle of the night, you wake up and you start having this existential crisis where you're like, you start to fear the end of life. And you just, I don't know, it starts getting way too big for 2 a.m. You're like, I'm trying to sleep right now. And it begs this question, I'm just gonna lob it out there, okay? And I need your help with this. What happens when I die?

- Yeah, can I start us off with a story that is uncomfortable, but definitely interesting. Like I don't know what you're gonna think of it. So it was several years ago. And I was really wrestling with this question like, you know, case, what happens when I die? And I don't know why. Maybe I was under a lot of stress or something like that. My kids were really young. And not that Nick is being young was stressed, but maybe that was. But the point is, I kept just at random times of the day, I would just get this question, like, what happens when I die? And then I would get this image, 'cause I think in images. So I would get this image of like just this wall. And up high was this like window, but it wasn't like glass. It was just like this opening and like a ladder that goes up to it. And this black, I don't like curtain. And you just go through it and you have no idea what's on the other side. And I would just get this thought like, so what happens when I die? Like what's gonna happen? 'Cause I don't know what's on the other side of that thing. And it was weird because I would get like, it's like someone standing on my chest.

Like really, almost sometimes I remember pushing my kids in the swing and almost getting like losing peripheral vision, you know, and starting to feel like, boy, I feel like I need breath, you know? And I would just get these feelings of like, you're gonna die someday, it was horrible. Like it was terrible and I hated it. I hated these feelings. They just come out of nowhere, like you're gonna die. And I didn't know if that was like demonic oppression or something like that. But I was really, really struggling with it. And so I would pray about it. I'd be like, God, why do I keep coming up with these like random thoughts of just like dying, you know? And so it went on for months. And I was actually of all places I was at a concert. It was David Crowder was, he was playing. And it was great 'cause it was super loud and there's thousands of people there. And I'm like, near an aisle. And a lot of his music at the time dealt with this theme of death and separation and things like that. And it just brought up that thought again. And all of a sudden I was just in that same place where I was just like, boom, you know? And it just felt so deflating. So I got mad. And I remember just like stepping out in the aisle

a little bit. And since everybody's singing, everybody's all loud. I just talking, I'm like, God, I'm so tired of this. I am so tired of this. And of course everybody else, it looks like I'm like worshiping like, you know? But like literally I'm like, I'm so tired of this feeling. God, please take this away from like, why? Why am I feeling this? I'm so tired of it. And I just let them have it, you know? And it's been like a handful of times in my life where I feel like God really has said something back. And this was definitely one of those times. And it was plain as day. Like the sine wave of my thoughts is going like this, you know? And it's usually like lightning bolt out of the blue. And this was the thought it was, John, I've done it before. I can do it again. And immediately I just thought I had this image of I was in blackness before, before I was born. I brought you out of that, you're alive. I've done it before. I can do it again. - Wow. - And it was like, it hit me that because I'm alive, the chances of me being resurrected are greatly increased by the fact that I'm alive because it's already happened once.

And so why am I doubting that he can do it again? And that was such a great comfort to me. I felt like, man, no, I still have from time to time, like, oh, it's coming. But I think of that revelation, epiphany, whatever it was. And it wasn't my thought. You know, you can tell it's much smarter than I think. You know, I was so grateful for that like just relax, okay? I'm in control. I've done this before. So I know it doesn't answer like what happens immediately, but I'm at least resonating with the question. - Or the burden and the tension that like what you described. I'm sure there's people that are feeling like, yes. - Oh yeah. - I've had that pressure, you know, and you know, you know, little kids can give you a lot of stress. You know, actually when I picture the veil, this is my veil right now. It's in Frozen 2 when they get to that hazy forest that they can't get through and it's mysterious. We've watched that movie 300 times in my kids. So now like my images of death is now replaced with Frozen. So that's my world. - Perfect. - Adam, what do you think, man? Like what happens after we die? - I have no idea. I haven't died yet.

I'll let you know when I, well actually I won't be able to let you know probably. But I think that's what gets me stuck is the unknown of it. Like I feel some alluded to John sometimes because I want to know. I'm like, I'm really big on knowing stuff. I love to know, but we just don't. And I think when you look at the Bible, you get some answers and we'll talk about, I'm sure we're going to talk about all the answers that we do have. But even there, it's not like a step-by-step playbook. Here's exactly what's going to happen and then this and then this and then this. And that's just satisfying to me. I'm like, dang, I really want to just like, I want to have the movie. I want to watch the movie, you know, of like the next two hours after death. But we don't really have that. That would be cool. So I feel like, I feel like we're adequately sharing like that burden, right? Almost like that fear. I don't really know what's coming next. So maybe we'll just dive in, like what does the Bible say? Like what do we know? It might be limited on painting the full picture, but what are the pieces we do know? Like when we die, what is this best Bible describing

is happening right after that? To be honest with the body is to be present with the Lord. And so I always go back to that verse and there's a series of kind of simple things that I think the Bible talks about is that when we die, like we are dead, okay? It's not like, here's our body and our spirit goes, ba-da-da-da-da, you know, like some kind of platonic type of thing. But we are done, but there's like an essence of us, like a core of us that goes to a place that's held in safety. NT Wright talks a lot about this. And I know he's super popular right now, but just the way he talks about it is kind of an easy way to understand the way Jesus was talking about, especially within like his whole context. So there's almost like this intermediate state that we are in the presence of God, wherever God is, is where heaven is, okay? So we got to separate out a couple of things here because when we talk about heaven and when we talk about the heavens and then we talk about like the future heaven on earth, there's many different things going on here. So wherever God is, is always where heaven is. And when we talk about the heavens, the Oronoi, that's like the heavens, the starry host, that type of thing, that's a physical place.

And so Paul will talk about being caught up to like the third heaven. He's talking about something beyond anything physical and that's the presence of God. So wherever God is, is where heaven is, but there's like an effort that God is leading to bring heaven to this earth and to like take over again. Where the Garden of Eden started out was the presence of God, this was heaven. And then because we chose sin, now those get separated, the whole action of the rest of our lives or the rest of human history is for God to come back in and invade this place and make it heaven again. So what we're doing between those two poles of like the time when Jesus will come back and God will set up his kingdom on this earth, we go to a place that we're held safe, we're conscious, but it's kind of like not really the end yet. It's not the heaven that the Bible talks about. That's like this glistening place. And so NT Wright talks about this, how it's like life after death. So that we'll have like life after death where we're just kind of kept in some people called it in ages past like soul sleep. And it's not necessarily like we're asleep, but we're just conscious, we're with God, we're safe, we're warm, everything's good. But it's not the final destination. So then the life after that life after death

is when God says shows over, I'm coming, I'm gonna judge sin, death, disease decay, it's all done. He comes back and brings heaven to this earth. That's when we receive our resurrected bodies. That's when like the real thing happens. That's when heaven actually happens. So we're not, I think the traditional way of looking at it is like, well, this earth is going to heck in a hand basket. So when I die, I'm going up to heaven, I'm gonna live up here. And I'm just gonna enjoy an eternity up here and a party with God, and the earth's just gonna kind of like waste away, you know, we're gonna escape this earth. That is the biggest, Because it's like, well, God came here and developed everything, created everything, was with us face to face, everything was perfect and right and awesome, and then sin entered the picture. And so God went over here and now we escape over here and Satan wins. - Right, God is afraid of the way that the earth became and he's so ashamed of it, he's like, I'm not coming back, but I'll get a couple of people to come with me. - God flight. - You know, it's like we're leaving, we're leaving the city, we're going over here. So yeah, I think that the whole idea

is that God is not retreating, that God is pulling back, giving us free will and then coming back to invade and take over and say, no, no, no, Satan, you don't get the last word, I'm coming in to take over this place. So we have to understand it's in a couple of different parts. When we die, we go to a place that's kind of a place of holding until that time comes that God is going to come and institute his kingdom on earth. - Can I ask a question about that? - That's when we get our bodies, that's like this is heaven, essentially. - Okay, yeah, so when you talked about second Corinthians five, you know, to be absent from the body, present with the Lord. So when you think about, so I've always pictured, hey, when I die, I'm immediately in heaven, right? And heaven's like this spiritual realm that I'm up on. - All your friends are like, yeah, right. 'Cause you have the new heavens, new earth, right? It writes about these separations, heavens and earth. And so when I die, I'm in the presence, it says I'm in the presence of the Lord and where God is, that's where heaven is. So is it appropriate for me to say I'm in heaven? So when I die, if I'm immediately in the presence of God, am I immediately in heaven after I die? - Yeah, I don't wanna, you know, I'm not gonna be like a grammar cop and be like, - Well, it's not actually the final destination, you know,

like so. - Yeah, but is the term appropriate? Like when people are saying that, like, I'm dying and going right to heaven, is that, it okay way to say that? - I mean, Jesus on the cross, he's with another person who trusts in Jesus as a savior and he says to him, today you'll be with me in paradise. So Jesus uses the term paradise. I think what John's saying is probably like, it's semantics, you know, like you could say heaven, it's not technically correct, but also like, heaven is where God is and you're going to be with God. So yeah, it's heaven, but it's not the heavens and it's not when heaven meets earth in the new kingdom. - So it's almost like, again, he said, not to be grammar police about it. It's just saying, hey, yeah, it's gonna be a good place to be in the presence of God. Some may call that peace heaven, but we also know there's going to be a future and you have a new earth that's the ultimate. - Yeah, it's like saying, you know, your dad says, "Hey, we're all going to Disney World, let's go." I got plane tickets, awesome. So going to the airport is like dying, you know, like you're on your way there. So you can say like, yeah, I'm going to Disney World. Like I'm at the airport, I'm on my way to Disney World. So you wouldn't say I'm in Disney World necessarily,

if to be proper, but you could basically say, yeah, I'm on my way there. So we're on our way to Disney. That's kind of what when we die, we're on our way to heaven and we are in this place until God at the fullness of time says, "I'm going to bring heaven to earth." And that's when you're going to receive your future body, your glorified body that will never die. You're going to have this kind of outlook that will not allow you to sin anymore, even though you've chosen now to follow Jesus. So yeah, I think that's where it is, is when we arrive in Disney World, or Lamb? What's one of Florida? - There's two off the world. - Disney World, okay, yeah, that's better. So Disney World down Florida, like once I'm there, like that's heaven, that's where heaven comes earth. And again, that's incomplete because it's like we're going somewhere. When really the whole idea is that heaven is coming to us. And when Jesus came on this earth, He was like the advance, the initial troops that set up a beachhead for the kingdom of God, the church now enlarges that territory. And at some point, God is going to take those gains and then take over the whole earth and universe, renovate the place. - Which is super important when it comes to how we choose to live. Because if your mindset is, this place sucks, I can't wait to go to heaven.

You have no reason to invest anything here on earth. With people, with plates, like you don't need to take care of the earth, you might as well light it on fire so that God comes back sooner. But that's not what the story of scripture is. The story of scripture is God wants to redeem this earth. And we're meant to take care of what we've been given. - Well, now you're talking about material things. Now imagine actually our souls, our selves, right? So if you put your trust in Jesus and you put your trust in the blood of Jesus on the cross, saves you, makes you right with God, right? It justifies you. So now you are seen as righteous, even though you're not totally righteous, you're seen as righteous, right? you're going to go through a path of like, I did some good things and I messed up and then I did some good things messed up. And like you're progressively becoming better and better, let's say, more like Jesus, let's say. So this process of sanctification isn't just about like, boy, what can my GPA be by the time I die? It's not like that. It's much more of like, I'm getting ready to live in the state that I will be in, in heaven. So I want to get there quicker. So it's not just like, bonus points, look, I was at level 42 and somebody else was only at level 15. So I get more mansions, it's not like that.

It's more like, no, we're actually becoming more like who we will be in the new heavens and new earth. - Yeah, so it seems like there could be maybe different ways people try to describe what that means to them or like what technically the term heaven means. But have we, do we get any glimpses of what it's like, of what it looks like? I'm even thinking like, like people talk about having near-death experiences, right? So they haven't actually died yet, but people share stories of what they see, what they experienced when they're near death. I mean, could that be a genuine glimpse of what heaven actually will look like or what the new-- - You got a good story. - I got a story I can tell about this. I think the answer is, yes, it could be, but maybe not. The, I met with all the options. I met with a buddy of mine who's like a psychologist and he's actually talking about this. And he said one of the greatest evidences that NDEs are legit is that they map onto each other really well, meaning people have very similar experiences. So that like one guy has an experience like this, another one, and they're almost like the same thing. - Wow. - So there's a lot of like similarities between them. And it's almost like dreams in that way.

What we're like, if common dreams are happening, you're like, well, this is something bigger than just the synapses firing their brain. When someone dies, I think within like the first minute, their brain stops firing, the synapses stop firing. But when people have died for a long time and then come back, they have NDEs that go on like in their mental state, at least, for hours. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, anyways, my buddy Cole, he had an NDE. He was getting choked out by a friend of his in high school. We make great decisions in high school. - That's all. - I've actually been a part of that. - The show's coming out where they joke. - When they do the thing and you pass out? - Yeah, but it was like serious. - My brother did that to me. - Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. - NDE? - No, no, no, no, no, you didn't die. - I just like, all of a sudden I got up and I'm like, "What just happened?" They're all like, "Ah!" (laughing) - So it was like that, except like very extreme. And he died. And this is how he remembers what happened. He entered like a vision and he was in a white room and there were two doors in front of him,

one dark, one light. The light door opened and he could look in. All he see was just beams of light coming out. And he started to move towards that door, but then he stopped, turned around, and he looked behind him and he could see himself sitting in a chair and crying, and he felt really bad for himself. And so he decided to go back to himself in the chair and when he did that, he walked back up. - Wow. - And was like traumatized. His eyes were bleeding and it was like really bad. - Oh my God. - Yeah, he was like in really bad shape. - Someone did it a little too good. - Yeah, it was pretty awful. But that story's not unique really. That's a very similar theme of like the moving towards the light and there was doors. And so you see a lot of these similarities between these people who have these NDEs in a way that would seemingly be impossible. Like your brain shouldn't be functioning at that point and there's no like electrical-- - Who's the guy that chronicles all those? - There's a guy named John Burnt. John Burnt, is that what it is? Yeah. He used to be a pastor in Texas

and he got super interested in these and he's documented like 1500 different ones and then mapped them onto each other to show like the similarities that people have. - Yeah, there was one guy who I guess he was, the doctor was working on him was in the cafeteria and they thought, oh, he's gone. Like he's not gonna come back without to notify the family or whatever. And he was like clinically dead and they quickly came and got him to like, I think he's coming out of it or something like that. And he dropped some spaghetti sauce on his shirt. And so ran up to the room, was trying to figure out everything going on. And this guy came to, the doctor wasn't in the room, never saw him face to face, but was saying like, where's the doctor with the spaghetti stain? - Oh, wow. - And like I saw him in the cafeteria and it's like, how could you have done that? So a lot of those cases involve that. I'm seeing things that there's nothing, there's no way you could have seen it. - Yeah, or even like I've heard hearing things, like they died in a field and they could, they usually what will happen is they transport out of their body and they're like looking from above. But this one, I heard this story of this girl, who could hear inside of the barn is like a mile away,

them talking about her but like where she was and what they were gonna do to go find her. she was able to recount for them the conversation that they had had, like a mile away. - Wow. - Yeah, which is like totally unexplainable. - Yeah, which is interesting. Tyler pulled up who John Burke is, 'cause it seems like he's done a lot of the research on this. This description of Google is interesting. He was once an agnostic engineer who doubted his divinity. And as his father lay dying, he explored NDEs and was struck by how many described encounters with a loving God. These stories set him on a journey from skeptic to pastor and lifelong NDE researcher. So it's something to this where his research is pulling out, actually changed his mind. - And that is a common theme, I think, when people experience them personally, even if they didn't believe before, their mind is open of like, whoa, I think something's gonna happen after I die. - Yeah, and we gotta be careful, because not all of it lines up beautifully. You have definitely things that overlap, like friends were there, family were there, a loving God, a feeling of peace, a feeling of everything's okay, light, even tunnels. And if it's not tunnels, sometimes it's like canals

or like waterways or something like that. Which is interesting, because I remember Carl Sagan talking about this a long time ago, and he said NDEs with this like canal or like hallway tunnel type of thing, he offered an explanation. He said, what is the most traumatic experience that we experience in our lives? - Oh, birth. - Yeah, so he's like, that's stored somewhere. And so during a time of great trauma, it brings back ideas of coming down the birth canal, which I thought was genius. I mean, it really is, it's kind of like, wow, but how many kids do you know are going like, oh, let me see, I can see everything. You know, like their eyes are shut, their heads getting squeezed, like nothing about it is anything warm going to the light, like they don't even see the light. So that to me was a little bit of a stretch. But I guess one of the things we gotta be careful of is that from different cultures, you'll see people that will talk about these near-death experiences, and they'll put it in their own frame of reference. So it'll be like, I saw Buddha, some people will talk about reincarnation, while I knew I was getting ready for my next body. And so they're bringing around with them some cultural baggage.

- Yeah, which is really interesting. Like what do you do with that? - Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I've also heard that it could be the echoes of like thoughts you were having as you died. And those are just kind of like bouncing around in your brain, that's conjecture. No one would really know that. I heard another story of the guy who was a Hindu, and he passed away, died. And during his NDE, he saw the city of Jerusalem. Like he told the exact measurements of the, I don't know how he could have known the measurements, but like the size and the qubits and all this stuff. And then when he came to, he was telling people about his experience. And one of his friends was a Christian and said, you describe the new Jerusalem that's in the book of Revelation. He had to become a good Christian because of that. - Wow. - So that's a crazy story, but then you're right. You'll also hear stories of people saying, regardless of what they believe, they had a great experience. - Yeah. - And it's, you know, there's gotta be, then there is saying that that way. There is examples in the Bible of people getting glimpses of things that are yet to come,

or like throne rooms, crazy stuff. And I'm thinking of 2nd Corinthians 12, and where Paul says this, yeah, verse two, he says, "I was caught up in the third heaven 14 years ago. "Whether I was in my body or out of my body, "I don't know, only God knows." - So he's like us, but not sure. - Yeah, we're not sure. Yes, only God knows whether I was in my body or outside of my body, like emphasizes that. But I do know that I was caught up to paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words. Things no human is allowed to tell. It's like real interesting, because we're describing these NDEs and people can kind of put words to it, but I've heard stories of people that are like, "I can't even really fully describe what I saw." Paul's saying the same thing in the Bible, that he had this experience that he's like, "One, words couldn't even, I couldn't even do it with words." - Yeah. - And then secondly, it's like, I'm not even allowed, which is just interesting. You know, it's like, hey, like, this is something that we just not supposed, like, is it good that we don't know? You think it's like helpful for us to like, is that too distracting?

Because we've got to focus on what's here. - That is a part, I mean, like, that's part of my larger framework on a lot of this stuff is that I think we are given this much, because all that we're given is so much more important in terms of telling people about the resurrection and getting people to a point where they can trust Jesus. If we start chasing all of these other things, it could be a huge distraction. So that's my theory is that why we have so little about these things. - Yeah. - So do we, so kind of moving towards maybe even spiritual? Like, we talked about spiritual creatures already. - Yeah. - And another episode. Be careful about that though, like when a guy's like, I'm gonna give you more snakes. I give more snakes. Yeah. You never know. Would we? So are we going to have any encounters with like, is there any examples in the Bible? Maybe we don't know. Any encounters with some of these spirits or start to see things that we've been seeing before? Like, does that kind of when those worlds converge, the things that we don't see now, will that eventually all be in plain sight? We get to see what these things are. Do you ever see anything ghost? I've seen a UFO. Nah.

I have. Are you serious? I'm serious. Yeah. Now they're called UAPs. Are they? Yes. Yes. I have heard that. UAP. I can't remember what it stands for though. Get out of the 70s, bro. I don't think I've seen a ghost. But I'm gonna give you a UFO though. Should we save that for a UFO? That maybe should, we should see a UFO episode is that. Don't we have a UFO episode? Yeah. We do have one about the universe. Yeah. I'll save the story for that. Okay, go. But I think that's a teaser. I think about like these two realms combining. That's kind of what you're saying, right? The spiritual realm and the physical realm. I think that happens when Jesus comes back. That's like the new heavens and the new earth. They become one. Until then, I think we go to that intermediate place where like soul sleep if you want to

call it that. So yeah, I don't know. I mean, once, once the new Jerusalem comes, I think revelation is the answer for a lot of those things. Like what do we see in Revelation? You got to interpret it correctly. It's prophetic language, it's apocalyptic literature. But it seems like these two worlds crossover and it's amazing. Yeah. It's like dope. It's going to be so cool. So you believe in ghosts? That's tried to answer. I mean, I don't believe in ghosts. No. No, I don't think so. But I thought you just said it crossed over though. Now. I'm putting this spot, man. Put it on the spot. I mean, I believe in demons and angels. I believe in spiritual realm, but I don't know if I believe in, if ghosts are just human beings who got stuck here, like their soul got stuck here, like Casper? No. Casper. I don't believe. So I, okay. I want to sit on that for a second because I think there is, there are beliefs out there that loved ones, you know, will kind of watch over us or after they die, can see us and maybe not in like a mainstream Christian way of thinking, but like that is a way of thinking

of like, hey, is that at all biblical that this intermediate space will be be aware? Like would we see the world play out? Do we, do we know anything about that? Has the Bible talked about that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like where, where, where Jesus mentions, I was just talking about this too, the, the bosom Abraham fixed chasm between here and there and you can't, you can't have any contact between it to it. And again, that's folklore. It's not necessarily something we can say, well, this is teachable. So do you think that story, that's, that gets debated whether it's like a parable or like true to form? Could that be theological accommodation that Jesus is just like, well, they understand Abraham's bosom. So I'll tell the story in a way they get. Theological appropriation. Yeah. Or, or is it like, no, Jesus said it. So this is how it is. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I think we got to listen, listen through the ears of the people there and he would have been like, well, you know this story. It's like this. So I think we're looking for the third truth beyond the story. So the story itself isn't instructive as much as the point beyond it. Because in that story, everybody's like conscious and aware in the, that's about shield. So this is before Jesus came back, there's like a grave and there's a good grave and a bad grave, like one's paradise, one sucks.

But everybody's like aware of everybody that's there, but you're saying, listen like an ancient Hebrew would have heard that story. Yeah. And, and I'm answering your question, like, are they able to see us? And I want to go back to even like the ghost because like, are there a ghost? Obviously people have felt like there are ghosts. And, and even there are words for ghosts. What's the passage in the New Testament where someone shows up, maybe it's Peter that shows up and they thought, oh, yeah, this ghost is ghost. Yeah. So there are words for ghost, apparition, spirit, like there, there are all kinds of words for this in the New Testament that people will use that's available to them in the vernacular, but there's really nothing taught about it in scripture. So when, when Peter shows up, they're like, Oh my gosh, it's this ghost. And it's like, who told you that? Like where'd you get that from? Yeah. So a couple of verses that I'm interested just to kind of dive into this too, Hebrews 12 talks about being surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. Who are those witnesses? Is that referencing? Like people who have already died that are in this intermediate, is that the witnesses or is this divine council? I mean, what do we know what that is referencing? Mm hmm. I don't think we know. But I think it could be either, it could be either. I know there's a verse in the New Testament that talks about like heaven rejoicing when someone chooses to trust Christ. And people will reference that as like, Oh, well, it's definitely dead.

of what's happening on the earth. And so that's, I think even where like praying to the saints comes from that like there are physical, like there's humans who used to live here now are consciously watching what's going on here. So you pray to them or through them, I should say. And when you pray through them, they like, it'd be like asking your friend to pray for you here on earth. It's like, well, it's the same thing. He's up there, consciously aware of what's happening. Oh, that's can pray for me too. But I don't know that that's like a lot of, I just took a lot of jumps to get to that place. - Yeah, yeah, it doesn't map it out much past that. The other one I think is real weird is in the Old Testament, and this is first Samuel 28. And so this is where they like summon, we can pull it up. It's just every time I see this verse, it freaks me out. So first Samuel 28. And this is where Saul consults a medium is like the title of it. And so I'm gonna just read a little bit of this because it just, this begs more questions. - Before you get into this, 'cause I think this is gonna unpack a lot, I just wanted to answer your cloud of witnesses thing. - Yes, please. - Because I wanted to just check out real quick to make sure that it was a poetic reference. And it's not a reference to anything external,

but to say a cloud of witnesses, it doesn't make, it's not making the point that there are a bunch of people that are watching everything, but it's more that we are, we are surrounded by a huge amount, you know, a spiritual legacy of people that have been faithful in their lives. So we are witness to them, you know, of what they've done by the scriptures. It's not so much that everybody's sitting there watching and just be, hey, look, look at Mark, he made a good choice there. Good job, you know, it's not that. - And that's actually so important because if I'm right, reading in that context, that comes right after Hebrews 11, which is the Hall of Faith. It's just like all these like, comes right after Hebrews 11. No, it would have brilliant thought. But it's almost like, here's all these examples of great people who've come and gone. And then it says, therefore, - That's good. - Because we're surrounded by such a great kind of witnesses. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - They're the witnesses. - Yeah, it's the Hall of Faith. - The Hall of Faith. And then it's like, now we're painting a picture of this as a cloud of witnesses, yeah. - Right, okay.

- Which we're throwing off by witnesses, 'cause it's like, oh, there's a cloud of people right up there. - They're witnessing. - Going like with little binoculars, you know, like witnessing, no, that's not. - So it's like, hey, tons of people, like just giants in the faith. - It's like a real giants, but-- - It's like a stadium full of people. - Yeah, like this is something you can take courage in. - Yeah. - And knowing that like, hey, others have walked this path and finished well. - So ghosts, I would say, are either a hyper-excited state that people might be in, maybe an emotional state, particularly around when people die that are close to them. They're like, I thought I saw, you know? - I mean, it might be like a figment of their like emotional imagination. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Something that, you know, they want to have happened. I have a friend of mine who, when a good friend of hers died, she was at the funeral and the sun came out and it hit the ring that he gave her and just like lit it up. And so she's like, oh, that's his ghost, you know? And it's like, well, it could be the sun that just lit up ring on your finger. And it was, you know, that's what it was. And so I don't want to be like an agnostic here

of anything spiritual, but I think a lot of times we over-interpret it. I think the second thing a ghost could be is perhaps some sort of demonic influence because boy, if we can get humans sidetracked on like this kind of Mickey Mouse thing here of something that's not true, that's a great way to keep them off of things that really matter. And sometimes people do get really super sidetracked and even held bondage to ideas about ghosts. I can't do this because the ghost might say this or, you know, that sort of thing. You know, it kind of seems like, you know, when someone we love dies, a great leader in our life, it's not so much like Star Wars, where like Yoda's gonna appear in like this Blue A's, and he's like smiling, he's like, what a way to go. - Blue A's? - You know, like a little hologram. - That's just redefines all of Yoda for me, yeah. 'Cause I think of Blue A's, I can go back to the '60s and I'm like, oh, no, he wasn't like a drug addict. - That wasn't referencing that. - I thought it was. - Which is like blue projection. - Thank you. - Yeah, so there's Yoda, there's Obi-Wan, you know, and I think sometimes we almost like the comfort of that idea that they're like,

they're just kind of there like, like, you're doing great. I'm here, I'm here, I'm with you. I think that's a big piece of it is like, I'm still with you. - Right, which brings to I think the third thing. So, you know, if we've said that it could be demons, it could be psychological, I think it could be an actual misinterpreted or misunderstood, some sort of communication either from an angel or even like a demonic type of thing that is trying to make some sort of contact. You know, you see this a lot in the scriptures where immediately an angel shows up and people are freaked out. You know, like, oh my gosh, you know, what just happened. 'cause I've never seen an angel, but obviously it's something that they're not feeling like, oh, this is warm and cozy, you know, they're freaked out by it. - Can I tell a quick story, too, please? - Dude, I was listening recently, this is Michael Heiser, and you know when Jesus walks on water, have you heard this story? - Oh, yeah. - I'm the Bible. - Yeah, yeah. - So I've always interpreted that to, you know, it's an indication of who Jesus is that he's God. So he calms the waters to show that he's greater than the chaos or something symbolic there. But I've never thought about why is he walking on the water? And what Heiser was kind of getting at is, that story is written like a ghost story.

I guess this was like a genre of literature at the time that like Hebrew people would have been familiar with. And so they would read it as like, oh, well, maybe Jesus is a ghost, but the one thing ghosts can't do, according to their understanding is they can't walk on water. - Interesting. - And Jesus walks on water. - So like in two ways, Jesus is declaring, I'm not an angel, I'm not a ghost. I'm not a regular guy, I'm God. And the story just packs them all in together. - So according to their folklore, ghosts can't walk on water. - Correct, yeah. It's a folklore thing. - Yep, yep. - But they would have known that. And then when they would have read that story, they would have been like, oh, so it's kind of saying he's a ghost. Wait a minute, he can't be a ghost. He's walking on water. - Interesting. - Yeah. - That's good. - So we're wondering what ghosts these ghosts are. Like this story in for Samuel, who wanna jump to this?

This is weird. This is so weird. - Really weird. - So you got like Saul, they're in trouble, classic Israel, and Saul's like already, he has recently banned people like calling up, using mediums, like calling up spirits, and ghosts, all that stuff. So this clearly is a thing that goes on, these sorcerers using mediums. And so at one point, his advisors like, hey, there's a medium at Endor speaking of Star Wars. - Yeah. - Wow. So verse eight, it kind of jumps in, Saul disguises himself, he wants to go to this medium, and he says, I have to talk to a man who has died. He said, will you call up his spirit for me? And this woman says, are you trying to get me killed? You know that Saul has outlawed all the mediums and all who consult the spirits of the dead. Why are you setting a trap for me? But Saul took an oath in the name of the Lord and promised, as surely as the Lord lives, nothing bad will happen to you for doing this, right? And so she's like, okay, well, what spirit do you want me to call up? Is it called up Samuel? So when the woman saw Samuel, she screamed. You've deceived me, you are Saul.

He said, do not be afraid, what do you see? She says, I see a God coming up out of the earth. What does he look like? Saul asks, he's an old man wrapped in a robe. She replied, Saul realized it was Samuel, and he fell to the ground before him. Why have you disturbed me by calling me back? Samuel asks Saul, because I'm in deep trouble. And he goes out of talk to Samuel, like they have an interaction. But I'm like, what? - What in the world is this? - Yeah, 'cause Samuel would be gone gone, like absent from the body, present with the Lord. So if he's being called back, so how do we interact with this passage? Is this a trick? Is this a dupe? Is this a demon that's like faking like he's Samuel? How do we interact with this? - It's wild, you know, I mean, like the whole story is wild. And I think part of it is, I mean, you can take two parts of this. One is that it's an anomaly. It's just one of those things that God just chooses to do whatever he chooses to do. And some people will go along that route and just say, this is where God just breaks all the rules, you know, and just kind of does this thing

that seems to accord with, you know, the idea that he's in shape, oh, and that he's being brought up and that sort of thing. The second thing could be, is that this is actually a story that is, that actually happens, something happened here, but it's not necessarily of God. It's not necessarily of demons, but it's something that they misinterpreted. Or interpreted in such a way that they're like, Oh, I kind of like the second explanation of this because they're using cultural references to things that aren't necessarily theologically accurate, you know what I mean? Like, you've brought me up from my sleep. It's like, well, okay, maybe he's in that like sleep that we're talking about before Jesus comes back and inaugurates the new heavens and the new earth. Maybe we're talking about that. But it seems like he's talking about Sha'ol. And Sha'ol doesn't sound like it's part of the overall plan of things. So yeah, those are two, I don't know if you can think of any other options, but those are two options I can think of. Yeah, it explains it. Yeah, it's, I mean, I'm looking at other versions that kind of talk about it. I mean, it's Isaiah 8, 19 also talks about, hey, people are saying, or some people may say to you,

let's ask the mediums and those who consult the spirits of the dead with their whisperings and mutterings, they will tell us what to do. But shouldn't people ask God for guidance? Should the living seek guidance from the dead? And so again, like there's all this, there's a reason God's out and telling us not to do that. Like don't seek, so whatever's going on here, like you said, John's like, I don't know that that's super clear, like if this is, you know, and there's a whole conversation even around. like where they went before Jesus was different. - Right, right, right. - And so maybe that also kind of works into the breaking of the rules is because things are a little bit different. - And again, you get this, it's classic and Hebrew literature is that you get this short little story with no details and then just move on. - Yep. - And this is perfect fodder for, okay, let's write a prequel. - Yeah, let's build some lore around this. - Yeah, we'll like send it around the internet and then 300 years I'll be like, did you read Adam's book? - One thing I think is important in there is that she says I see a God, which is the word Elohim. So we talked in one other episode about how the Elohim represents a whole spiritual category of beings. And that's what she sees when she calls up Samuel's spirit.

So I think that if it doesn't teach us anything else, it teaches us how they think about the spiritual realm. Or maybe there's a backstory that she's a witch and this story is double counting. One is the teacher to stop messing around with spiritual things. And the other is to process this through with Saul. - And so just to hit this real quick, 'cause I mentioned it, before Jesus came, before he conquered death, like we had talked about that in other episodes, like he came, he conquered evil. He conquered the grave. So before that happened, where, this doesn't really impact us, but people in the Old Testament before Jesus, when they died, where did they go? Was it the same kind of thing, or was this referenced differently in the Old Testament? - Where did they go? I would assume they go the same place we all go to just kind of like be with God until he inaugurates the new heavens and the new earth. - So there's no, like you think about other terms, Abraham's bosom, purgatory. There's all these different terms you used about after death kind of stuff. - Interesting, it's not necessarily a different category in Old v. New Testament before and after Jesus. It's all the same. - Well, I think what John's saying is like,

there's a difference between where did they go and where did they think they went, slash like where did they talk about going, right? Is that what you're kind of getting at? I wrote down some verses in the Old Testament about like what happens after you die. And the Old Testament does talk about resurrection that like eventually will be resurrected, which matters a lot because Jesus fulfills that. But it's also not super clear about that. It's not like, oh yeah, eventually one day there'll be a messiah and the messiah will raise us all from the dead. It's not really like that. But a couple places that does talk about the resurrection is Psalm 1610, David says, you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead. So that works shield, which is like the place where everybody who dies goes, but then it seems like there's a good part of shield and a bad part, good parts Abraham's bosom. The bad part would be like Hades. - Bland, black and white type of flavor. - Yeah, everything goes to 2D. - Yeah, Psalm 4915, God will redeem me from the realm of the dead. He'll take me to himself. Job 19 says, after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh, I will see God. So Job believes he's going to see God

even after his skin's destroyed. Daniel 12, too, talks about multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth. So they're sleeping dead in the earth. They will awake some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. And then the other one that I think pertinent is in the book of John. So before Jesus' death burial resurrection, Martha Lazarus has died. And Jesus says, do you think he will rise from the dead? And she says, I know he'll rise when the day of the Lord comes. And Jesus says, basically like, I am the resurrection. - Love that. - Which is a dope life, which is a dope life. - Yeah. - Rosicible. - But it proves that like they believed that there was a place that people weren't when they died, but moving towards a place where there would be a resurrection. But the theology wasn't like totally unrolled. There's like a progressive revelation in the Bible. Like as time goes on, more is revealed. And Jesus is like the ultimate example of that. - Right. Yes. - The first fruits. - Yeah, he's the first of those who have fallen asleep.

Yeah. - Yeah, he's like human 2.0. - Yeah. - Yeah. So it seems like we talk about this before, right? There's some things that feel not quite as clear, but what we absolutely know is that someday Jesus returns. And that's the whole idea of bringing a new heaven in a new earth. I mean, it's transformed. John was kind of diving into that a little bit of what that looks like. So can we talk about that? What, I mean, you think about heaven, what we picture like heaven in movies, cartoons, whatever. Like babies playing harps, you know, clouds. - Heaven's like Chick-fil-A. - Chick-fil-A wouldn't have to be there. - Everybody's happy to see you. Things happen quickly. You don't stand in line that long. And even if you're standing in line, people always talking with you and you eat awesome food. And-- - I'm surprised you even went this far with that. Well, it's either Chick-fil-A or McDonald's, right? You definitely want Chick-fil-A. No, won't be the opposite. Don't at me. I don't want to be going to have my room. I think we'll do McDonald's. No, still be well with that.

They know it's that they're the other side. That's okay. Yeah. But when we think about Wendy's. Now, Wendy's is amazing. Wendy's is kind of sanctified. Yeah. Yeah. Never frozen beef. Okay. That's what I mean. There is something to that whole thing of like just, you know, people being happy to see you. My pleasure. I mean, there's just something about heaven that just feels so good. Yeah. Tyler, can you pull up a picture of heaven for us? Cause I feel like, yeah, is that a picture of heaven? We said, if you look for a picture of who, isn't it? That looks like you. Like, is it behind me, you know, on this screen? Like the flowers. How do they shoot? Is that with a drone? They have a drone in heaven. I mean, isn't that where we know all of them? That looks more futuristic. That's not even whoa. That's a, I love that they're highways though. There you go. Like this to me, this like quintessential heaven right here. It's like just gold, shiny clouds, and I'm going to be honest with you. I'm not that excited about that picture. Yeah. Why? It looks boring. Boring? Yes. Take some pictures there. No, no, there's no contrast. It's all gold and it feels cold to me. Oh, so you need some slums thrown in there. I'd rather have this behind me. Yeah, we're in the favela and everybody's slums. Listen, I'm saying that the picture behind me is, like, feels more appealing. Oh, yeah. You'd rather hang out in the tomb. I don't know. Come on, man. Just ask the flowers, the trees. Pointing into the tomb. I can't tell where I'm pointing. It's directly behind. I like everything around the tomb.

Like, I'm going to hang out in a place where things rock. A nice old cave, like a bear. So, so to me, like the futuristic or like gold, all that stuff feels. I don't know. I just feels unappealing. It feels, it feels like the time for you and I. Let's stand in line together, you know, during when they're giving out things. Be like, he doesn't want a lot. OK, OK, wait, I'll take what he doesn't want. No, but what I want to ask now is, is that what I should be expecting? So if I look at that picture, look at this. Briel of heaven. Oh, well, now there's a tree. So is that what I should be expecting? Here's the here's the kind of. I don't know what the word sobering thought. When we look at all these huge mansions and stuff like that, we're estimating what heaven's going to look like from the richest country in the world, which represents maybe 1% of the world, 99% of the world. When they think of like a mansion or a big place, it's probably something that we'd be unimpressed with. So I wonder if when we get to heaven being having been in such a wealthy environment all our lives, are we, I don't know, are we setting ourselves up for, you know, like, you don't need all of that. I don't know how I'm trying to phrase this because I don't want to say like, we'll be disappointed. Obviously, it won't be disappointed. But like 99% of the world is looking for something that the rest of the people we live here, we'd be like, oh, that's nice. Yeah. Well, you know what's funny is like, I think underneath that is a mindset that's wrong. Yeah. And the mindset is like, heaven is about me. Yep. What I get when I get there. And I think I feel that way sometimes when I look at how Revelation describes heaven,

I'm like, that doesn't sound like what I enjoy in my life right now. But heaven's not about me. Yes. It's about God and about showing his glory. And it says like what happens in heaven will price similar stuff to what happens here, except that God's there. It's just like if God's full presence is there in his glory, we can't even imagine that. No, like that's why that's why things are different. There. That's why there's no sun. God is the sun. And there are streets of gold to demonstrate how regal God is. I don't know if there are actually streets of gold, but the point being like, if there's a word why there's so little written about it, you know, it would blow our minds. Yeah. I mean, the stuff that we do know, we know that it's God's dwelling place, right? I got five things here. It's God's dwelling place. Isaiah six, Revelation four, it's a place of eternal life and peace. We know that heaven is described as a realm without death or sorrow or pain. So he wipes away every tear, Revelation 21. It's a city of splendor. It's heaven is pictured as a magnificent city, New Jerusalem, streets of gold. We've seen all of it, gates of pearls, all that. There's going to be worship and joy so that we don't have to worry about like, what's there to do? I mean, it's what what used to worry me for a long time, though, is like when worship leaders would be like, we're going to spend forever praising God and I'm like, later, come on, man. I don't know, man, after about 12 minutes of standing, I'm ready to sit down. Like my ankles get itchy, you know, you don't know talking to my do, actually. You know, you feel that like itchyness in your ankles and you just, at church is when you sit down. Like have a seat and you're like, yes. Thank you, that last song was long and we kept hitting the same word over and over again. ♪ Thankful, thankful, I'm like 18 times thankful ♪

We got it, okay, what's that song called? Not thankful, but anyhow, sitting down really felt like a good thing and then it makes me feel bad. I was like, does that mean we're gonna be worshiping 24/7 all the time, which I don't think? But I mean, worship is more than just singing. And then the fifth thing is that there's perfect harmony and restoration, that heaven restores creation, unites everything under God's reign. So that's what at least the Bible tells us. And I think, so your picture right there of singing the same songs over and over. I grew up and that was like the picture in my head was like the song that was on repeat. I could sing of your love forever. Dude, what is about the repeat thing? But it's like when you hear worship, you do think in our brains, like, oh, like that worship moment where we all sing, like that's the most holy moment. But you think about it, we've referenced this as well is that the Garden of Eden. Like God, God had got set up that perfect place and gave Adam a job. Like, I mean, Adam got to do stuff and live in more like this, you know, not the tomb. So I think that to me, there's comfort in knowing, okay, I'm not saying cool big palaces can't be fun to see, but the idea of like being able to have joyful work

and then God, like clearly we were designed for earth to be on this planet and the Bible tells us a new heavens and new earth. So that piece of it's big, you know, and I actually heard Jonathan Pecluda talked about this once. I can't remember the name of the church he's a pastor at, but he talked about like, hey, what if we just thought about it, you know, when God creates new heavens and new earth? One, like you said, we're not, God's not running away from his creation. Be like, oops, what's new kit? It's like, no, no, no, I'm reclaiming, I'm reclaiming. And like we lift off it and we go back down on this, this new earth, right? Like this kind of, we talked about the intermediate's place, that state and then think about this. This is more exciting to me is there's a lot of places I'm not going to get to go before I die. I've seen pictures of it. I've seen B roll on my Apple TV. I'm like, that looks cool. And I click on to see where it is. China, I don't have plans to travel to China. It's not, you can't, but you might not. I might not. And even if I spit-- Like the ice wall and Antarctica before you flip off the edge of the disc. (laughing)

You're picturing that one. You're gonna miss that? I wasn't picturing that one. But I think about these places that I'm like, I am not gonna end up at these places. But how cool do you think that a new heaven and new earth could also the worship? It could also be just marveling at the splendor, like you mentioned, of what God has created and having the opportunity to see some of that in its perfect condition? Like to me, that's more exciting to me than harps and clouds. Well, and you gotta remember, looking at this from a first century Jewish person, sees gold and, you know, jasper and diamond and like all of these jewels and things like that. There's a heavy amount of symbology there. And not that we have to unpack all of that, but what we can derive from that, it's deeper than we're thinking. So I would say if I'm thinking through the five biblical things that we just talked about in terms of like what heaven really is, for me, and I wanna test this out on you guys and see what you guys think, I think it comes to me like five different things that I think of that are more practical. Like what am I gonna enjoy in heaven? So the first thing is this,

I believe that heaven is a place where we are reconnected to the original intention of being created. In the garden, they were told to subdue it. What do you have to subdue? There was something to overcome. It was work, you know, like you're supposed to till the ground, be fruitful, multiply. - Who's the garden? Not the woods, to have a garden you gotta take care of it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, that tells me, and again, in symbolic way, like there's stuff to do. It's not like when I was a kid, I was like, well, heaven sounds kind of boring. You know, I'm gonna be in a toga, and I'm gonna have a harp. I gotta learn how to do a harp. I'm gonna be sitting there eating grapes. And you know, all of us, we all had this idea, you know what heaven's like? And I remember having conversations with like, Bobby Friday, Josh Friday, like these kids in my neighborhood, like heaven's gonna be like, if I want an ice cream, boom, there it is, you know? And like, where's the Bible say anything like that? Like we're gonna become gods. And again, it's not about us. It's more like, no, we're gonna be reconnected to the original intention of why we were created.

Subdue the earth, fill, and multiply it. And so that means we'll have jobs. That means we'll be concerned with things. Which means some things might be difficult. You know, it's not less like a heavenly, like everything's given to you, like you're on a cruise ship somewhere. And if we have jobs, work to do, does that mean we'll have money? - Will there be a physics to it? Yeah, could you potentially like bump into things and be like, oh, and there's no more pain, like, oh, you know, I'm deeply sorrowful about something, but pain is a good thing to remind you that like, hey, take care of your arm or whatever, you know, like, could you potentially like break your arm on a ski trip, you know? And then in the name of Jesus, and it just goes back. - You know what I mean? - Stubbing your toe in the middle of the night. - Right. - That's how it's been. - Wow, that hurts. I don't think that's like a product of the fall. I think that just is, it's part of our biomechanisms. And I think there's gonna be a biomechanism in our new bodies and a physics in our new bodies that will necessitate us having to figure out what all that is. So that to me makes me feel like, okay, cool. So I'm actually like, integrated into something.

It's not just like, everything's brought to me. I think I would, I think all of us as humans would lose the will to live if everything was like ice cream, you know, like ice cream would be good. - We think that would be good. I don't know if it really would be. A great book on that Garden City by John Mark Homer. Really, really cool look. Well, it just describes what you're talking about. We think it would be good to be in a place where you don't have to work. But could you really live that way? We all want tasks to accomplish. I wanna, I constantly am fixing things at home. And I love it. - Well, StarCraft taught me, the game StarCraft, is that you don't want all the things unlocked. There was a cheat code you could use in StarCraft. - Are you married? - And somehow, it's a miracle. And you put in the cheat code and you give you unlimited resources. And, or Sims, did you ever play the Sims? - Oh, yes, yes. - We're like you Rosebud, you'd write Rosebud. And I think I played it since I've been married, so. And you give you unlimited wealth. What's funny is like, the little lessons you learned from that is it got boring immediately after. Immediately after.

It was like, I can have everything and I work for it. And to your point, it's like, no, no, no. Part of what gives us joy is the work that we put into something and it produces something. And like, that was hard. And if it's easy and you have it all, that's not exciting. Like, cool, ice cream, like teleporting into my hand seems cool. But eventually it's like, what do I have to do to make that? - Yes. - What do I have to find? - Right, right, right. - It had to churn in the ice for how long? - Yep, and then when you bake that scoop, it's like, man, I work for this. - Yeah, you did it. - Yeah. - You accomplished something. Second thing I would say, it's finally a place where we can be human. Right now we're human sinful. Like, to be human, it's like the opposite of what we intrinsically think. We think, oh, we're gonna be God like, no, we're gonna be human. And what does human mean? It means the emotions, the strengths and abilities that we were created for.

So, is it possible to see somebody with a bigger house in heaven and not feel jealousy? And be like, that's awesome for him. I am so excited for him. That's what it means to be human. What it means to be human, is it possible? And this is conjecture. Obviously none of this is necessarily scriptural, but is it possible that we might have a day where we just feel blue? Like, I just don't feel like doing anything today. Is that a sin? Is that a product of the fall? It's a very human type of thing. Are there gonna be days where like, I just wanna paint, you know? Like, I'm just feeling this emotion. I gotta express it or whatever. I just think there's a whole range of like, oh, longing. Is it possible to be frustrated? Be like, and I really wanna get this done, but I can't get there yet. Is it possible to be frustrated and not sin? And be like, ah, I'm gonna work at that thing. And then I'm gonna, 'cause then part of what the beauty of frustration is that overcoming it makes you go like, I did that. And if everything's just given to us, I don't know if we can be human. - Yeah, part of what makes a human human is free will.

And that we're not robots. - Right. - If we go to heaven and we become robots, are we even human anymore? - Right. - Probably not. - Right. Third thing I would say is it's a place that we're gonna go that we won't be able to sin. But I believe this. I don't believe like we're robots. Like, I can not sin. - I think it's gonna be more like, and this is my theory. Tell me for what you think about this. Yep, this is my theory. My theory is that- - My theory for music, underneath this theory? - Yeah, can we put a little bed here? - Down, down, down, down, down. - That was an impossible theory. - That was, it was an impossible theory. At the beginning of time, when we were presented with the opportunity to sin, you know, in the garden, right? I almost imagined it like, here's our like cup, and then there's like water in it. I don't know why I have this image. But we were told like, okay, well, you can do this or this. You can listen to God or not listen to God.

So like, on that first thing, when we decided not to listen to God, And then the second time we send another drop and another job, pretty soon we've got like a little stream and then that stream now becomes like a pretty raging river. And now it's just this like Niagara Falls. Like we can't even imagine swimming upstream. We can't even imagine not sinning. But I don't know if it's necessarily because it's impossible but because of the momentum of sin dynastically in our existence as humans. So the idea of like swimming up against that current, like it's almost impossible. So I wonder if now that we've been given the chance to respond to Jesus and now we're in heaven, I wonder if that obedience is the same way in the other direction, like we obey. We obey again, we obey and now we've got a stream and a river and it becomes before long it becomes this massive Niagara Falls of obedience. Like I can't even imagine not obeying obeying, having the ability to, but not even having the capacity to. Does that make sense? - Yeah, I've never thought about it that way before, but I feel like it almost has to be something like that because something changes, like something big changes when we resurrect and you look at the spiritual beings, they have the free will to choose to deny Christ, at least that's what happens in Genesis six, but yet some of them don't, they stay holy.

So that does explain some things, that's an interesting thing. - So these are all things I think about when I think of heaven, not so much like the gold and all that kind of stuff, but I think of all these possibilities. So I got two more, the last one or the last two, number four would be when you look up at a night sky and you see like the known universe as far as we can tell in terms of what we can measure, 95 billion light years across, you know what I mean? Just like incredibly and just expanding, you know, it just keeps getting me, what the heck is it expanding into, which is insane? Sometimes I'll draw that out on a board and I'll put an X outside of at least this balloon, like what is the universe expanding into, which is wild, you know? But I wonder if the reason why this universe is so expansive, so huge was at the beginning of time when God created us, there was no death rate. So we would not die and we were fruitful in multiplying and we keep multiplying and keep multiplying, we would fill up this earth. So I wonder if the planets, star systems, like all of it over an eternity's amount of time was meant to be inhabited. And I wonder if that was part of creation, that we look up in the night sky and right now the Fermi Paradox is another kind of indicator that we just haven't heard anything from anyone. We're gonna get into that in a later episode, but the fact that it is empty is a testament

to the power of sin, the unused potential. And now flip that around in heaven, what if in the new heavens and the new earth, now this is a place for us to explore, this is a place to just go colonize, do something with, and I know that sounds a little Mormon, but-- - I was thinking of you on Musk going to Mars and-- - I'm just saying like, is it possible that we have stunted our potential because of sin? And that by this time, if we were with God, we would be venturing off and exploring out of it. And so that to heaven to me is like that is like, "Well, what untapped potential is there out there?" And then the last thing would be, we finally connect with the intention, the original intention that God has created us to be. There's something that God originally intended us to be a part of, and we're in this little detour called sin, and we're gonna reconnect. That's exciting to be. - So a question about that then, and you think two things pop in my head, one, when we're in heaven, what does the Bible say about, well, we recognize people? Like, what I know, what I know you guys feel like, if we go up there, would it be like, you know, bump into you, I'd be like, "Guys, man, like remember that podcast we did?" Talk about heaven, like, how far off were we?

Like, is that not even close? - Well, we have a persistent memory from like these moments. - I'd be like, "Andrew, check this out. Andrew, put your controller down." (laughing) - Check this out. Play in Sims, man. - But is there any indication that the Bible tells you that it's gonna be in the tomb? Hey, guys, check out this place, man. It's got air conditioning. (laughing) - I digress here, so like, do we know if that would be a possibility? Or is it like, fresh start? Or we know everyone all the same, because now we know everything. Like, "Oh, I know everyone." - Yeah. And will you know your wife? - Yeah. - Would that be odd? Be like, "Hi." - I told my wife one time that I wasn't sure if I would know her in heaven and she cried. (laughing) It was so sad. It was a huge mistake. - I'm still learning how to be a good husband. (laughing)

I would recommend not-- - Did I get a few more years in the marriage for you to even talk about that? - Yeah, bro. Yeah. Well, I think that there, biblically, there's a passage in Matthew. Is it Matthew 20-something? - That Jesus says, and they're trying to like get him with this idea that when the resurrection happens, will this woman who has had multiple husbands, which one will be her husband? And Jesus says, in the resurrection, you'll be like angels who are neither given in marriage nor are they married. And that doesn't mean that angels couldn't be married, it's just that they don't, you know what I mean? But it's almost like he's saying like, you guys just don't get it, like you just don't understand. Like when the resurrection happens, it's just gonna be different than you think. That's how I understand it. So that doesn't mean you won't know your wife. It's just not gonna be like that. It's just gonna be different than that. - Yeah, that's Matthew 22.30. For when the dead rise, they'll neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect, they will be like the angels in heaven.

And it is, it's funny 'cause there's some things that feel clearly it's not gonna be a disappointment over there, but it almost feels like one here because you have a wife, somebody you've committed your life to. And you're like, man, when we go up there, will we not have our own little home in heaven together? You know, and like hang out like that? Or the piece of it that's always been tough is what desires of my heart just change? You know, like I can't predict that or feel that now because I don't know what it's like to be in heaven in the new earth and have a new heaven body. - I mean, so much of our lives here are social lives, you know, and so I can't imagine that we wouldn't know people. It would also involve like people in the new that hurt us. - Yeah, sure. - That will be transformed by being there. - Yeah. So heaven's one piece of the picture, more fun to talk about, but what about people that don't know Jesus and they haven't decided to follow him? So what does hell look like, right? Is this eternal separation from God? What's the picture that we have here? Do we really actually know much about what that would actually look like? And of course there's images. You know, I'm saying that and like, what does hell look like?

We can Google that right now. And everyone's gonna predict what this is gonna look like. This apocalypse, fire, look at this picture, just constant war. - Yeah. - Doesn't look good. It does not look good. - I always resent these as how like Satan is depicted as the landlord of hell when he's an inhabitant. - Right. - Right. - He doesn't run. - Big, big difference. - 'Cause we're told he's cast into hell. - And got a revelation even references. Like it was prepared for Satan in his demons. And so yeah, it's different than him being down there with his pitchfork like calling the shots. - Right, right, right, right. It's like Dwight Schrute when he's like, I imagine myself as the landlord of hell. It's like, what? There is no landlord. Everybody that wants to be, and I think that's the crucial thing, is that it's a decision. It's a decision to walk away from the giver of life. And so I always take picture of it this way in very like broad sense. When we decide to follow Jesus,

it's like we were walking all of us. We were born into this world, walking toward death, walking towards sin. And we were heading in the destination of self. Everything I want, whatever matters to me, excuse me. And so when God reaches me with his grace and I'm able to turn and repent and walk the other way, and repentance is basically turning around, walking the way by the grace of God, the scenery is so different. On the one hand, I'm walking to blackness, death, decay, disease, all of it. It's sin leads to death, the Bible says. When I repent and turn around, I am welcomed into the kingdom of light, where it's like, always spring, everything. Like everything about God is about life. It's like he's always budding and creating and sustaining and everything about him is so good. So when we choose not that and we head the other way, it's just the logical extension of so many steps after each other of saying, this is what I chose. So it's not like God is picking up people and throwing them into hell. It's more that this is the logical next step for someone who said, I don't want anything to do with that. So what does hell look like? And is it a real place? Yeah, it's real.

It's a real separation from God. So there's language used by Jesus to describe hell and he describes it as awful. Like place with the hashing of teeth, there's fire, there's darkness, which by the way, there's fire and there's darkness. It seems like fire would eliminate the darkness. So he's using language that seems at sometimes symbolic, anything good would not be great. Once you get into the specifics of like, what exactly is it? It's hard to say. I know in Revelation, it talks about a lake of fire. So what what's currently hell, Hades, Gehenna, will be thrown into the ultimate lake of fire. And so there's almost like hell on top of hell. And that's a, that's the final judgment. Prior to that, we have a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth where the worm never dies, as it says in Jesus's account. I, I, um, there's a book that's really helped me with this, the two of them actually. One is called The Skeletons and Gods Closet by Joshua Ryan Butler, really, really interesting and helpful look at hell. And then the other one is The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. And this is conjecture because none of us have been to hell and C.S. Lewis hasn't either. But he talks about how in, in his perception in this book, it's a fictional, you know, look at what it would be to take a bus ride from heaven down to hell. And hell is sort of like the result of your own decisions to move away from God. It's like a prison that's trapped from the inside. So if there was a trap door, they pulled it shut and they could get out if they wanted to, but they don't want to. They won't choose that because they've already made that decision that they won't. And in hell, everyone is moving away from each other. So they talked about at one point. I think Napoleon Bonaparte is the character that they're talking about. He's like, well, like, is Napoleon here? And this character is like, yeah, he's here, but he's so far away that it would take you hundreds or thousands of years to get to him. Because in hell, everyone wants to get away from everybody else. They want to build their own little kingdom and they don't want to be in contact with anyone else. So it's like ever expanding into like nothingness. And the more that you're there, the worse that it gets, because it's just a comp, it's like a compounding factor

of your own selfishness. And it's just a spiral downward. Mm hmm. Wow. No, you know, in the New Testament, they'll be thrown in the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, which describes more of a, like a, a psychological state of being, you know, not necessarily so much like what the surroundings look like. No, in Isaiah 66, it talks about the maggots don't die there. The worm diet not, which means that there's always something to feed on. You know, it's just, it's imagine in this world where there's still the grace of God, and we talk about common grace where God keeps us all from like annihilating each other. We've developed weapons that can destroy the world 50 times over, right? Can you imagine being in a place where there's not the common grace of God, and then not even having the ability to end your life, but you just keep destroying each other and keep destroying each other. And so that's why, you know, when you'd mentioned Gehenna, it's, that's the southern trash spot, you know, where sometimes fires would pop up, and it's just smells bad. It's where things go to die. There's rot disease. It's, it's everything the opposite of life. And so that's why people have talked about like the lake of fire or something like that, not necessarily that God has dreamed up a torture chamber, but more that people who don't want anything to do with life wind up killing themselves over and over and over and over again. Well, and so we think about this, this place, you know, how Hades, all these like terms for it, the Jesus when he died before he rose again, those three days that he'd go there. Second Peter seems to indicate he went somewhere. It's hard to say this is a, this is a debated topic, because it says we should look it up. Can someone look up the second Peter? Oh, you got it up there. First Peter, first Peter three 18. Yeah, let's just read it says, Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the spirit. So he went and preached to the spirits in prison. Those who disobeyed God long ago when God wanted waited patiently while Noah was building the boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. So some people have interpreted that to save that when Jesus was dead for those three days, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. It could be either the spirits of the sons of God, who have been chained up in prison, like the spiritual beings, the Banae Alohim, or it could be the, the humans that died during

the time of the flood, who then Jesus is giving them an opportunity to, to be saved or, or either of those options, but he's not giving them an opportunity to be saved. He's instead just basically saying like, I won, but I don't think so because he's preaching. Would it was that, I don't know, that doesn't seem like God's character to preach and be like, you guys suck. Hey, look what I did. Yeah. After all his whole message on Earth, that's all he went down there to do. Right? Yeah. There's there's sort of like examples. I don't think there's anywhere else in the Bible that even references that outside of that verse. So again, this is another example of we get this little teeny picture. But it's a question. I've heard this question before. And so it's like it's a the questions warranted to ask. And I think sometimes the answer is, hey, it's a little bit that we got here. So we we don't fully know exactly what that looked like, but we can see where the questions come from. And yet another passage where, you know, there's this little clip and it's kind of like, boy, you could take that a bunch of different ways, you know, you could take it metaphorically. You could take it along the lines of the Benet Elohim. You know, is it are these the spirits in prison? Is all part of the whole Genesis six mega theory, you know, behind all of that? Or is it something that Peter is using, again, as a sort of folk tale-y type of thing? Like, hey, you know, we know this story. And so hinting at a third truth, be honest, I think it kind of hints in that direction, is that like Jesus did all these things well and he was exhaustive the way he did it. And it's also so this is another kind of like pause moment to say. There's so many things that you can try to fill in the gaps for. You get like you just said one or one off passage that we're trying to like build theology around. Yeah, yeah. When so again, there's going to be some stuff that even on this this podcast, we're like, I don't I don't know the full scope of that.

But when you look at the, I don't know is you have to then turn around and say, but what do I know? Like what's the overwhelming biblical evidence that says, hey, I might not know exactly if Jesus went to hell or like exactly what this looks like. But we do know that Jesus has already won, but we'll ultimately come back and we'll restore. Things are not perfect right now. Eventually they will be perfect. Jesus will restore and all we have to do is put our faith in Jesus. So it's like you keep going back to the gospel and it keeps things simple because we can get lost in these weeds and we feel this like it's almost like we can get too deep in it. And we have to almost constantly remind ourselves, hey, I don't know, I don't know, but what do I know? And that's the anchoring truth on this. And so the other like burden in this conversation then is here comes. Yeah, I know it is for some like what about people who haven't heard about Jesus? And so I'm talking about all this hope that we have because of Jesus. And there are some people that that blatantly preached Jesus or preached to them. And that's kind of on them. Are they going to just choose to believe that? What about someone who they have never heard about Jesus? I don't know. They live in an island somewhere. They live somewhere like they just have never heard about Jesus. What do we know? What do we do with that? I always go back to Romans one and two. And Romans one gives a whole summary of like almost like the universe of sin that has happened in the history of humankind. And then I love on Romans two, two, four and onward where it's like. And so we're some of you before you were able to respond to this grace. And then at some point he says, don't you understand that God's patience to you is how he shows his kindness to you.

And I'm paraphrasing, but man, he's so patient with us. And then he goes on a little bit further to develop this a little bit more explicitly where he talks about those and maybe we should just bring it up. Romans chapter two, do we have it here? Romans two. And I think it's going to be like 10 and onward. Yeah. So that we claim it. Yeah, about 12 when the Gentiles sin, they'll be destroyed. Even though they've never been friends with God's law and the Jews who do not have a God's law will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. For millions listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. There's a phrasing of this where it says they become a law to themselves. And so the crux of the argument is this, is that if you know about Jesus and you know about what he's done for you on the cross, that's what you know. And so you are in a sense responsible for that information. But for someone who's never heard of the name of Jesus, the extent to which they can respond to how God has revealed himself to them either through the natural revelation, general revelation, things, things that they know that that we have on our heart, like what's right and wrong. That is the extent to which they would be judged because it's unfair to judge. I mean, Jesus themselves says forgive them. They don't know what they do. So there seems to be an ethic there of like, if you don't know what you're doing, then you can be forgiven or at least like not held responsible for that information. So if someone's never heard of Jesus, the extent to which they understand what's good, what's bad, what God has revealed to them in their heart, that is a separate law or a different way of judging them. It isn't that true before Jesus was born, like Old Testament, people in the Old

Testament, like I just thought pop in my head too is, is There's prophecy, but people are making a decision about God. You know, that's not necessarily hinge on Jesus. How does that work? - Well, I wanna say like, even my interpretation of it, I know it's fairly controversial. People will get upset at that. You might have people be like, "How dare you say that?" And I understand it's just, I'm not perfect. I'm not an expert in exegesis at all. That's where I tend to arrive. I could be wrong, could be right. But the problem with, what was it when you were just saying, I'm turning, I remember exactly what I was saying. - Well, we commented on, hey, Jesus, we believe that the history of him dying, rising again, believing in that. What about people who were walked the earth and died before that event even happened? - Right. So there are some people that would disagree with how I'm looking at it and say, "Maybe it's too liberal or playing with the text in some way." And they would say, "Well, God purposely knew that those people who lived in that area, who'd never heard of Jesus, he knew they wouldn't respond." And so that's why he made those people in those areas

because they would've gone to hell anyhow. - Interesting, okay. - It's, I don't know if it's any less playing with the text or its intentions than what I'm doing. But mine seems to line up with at least a spirit of Jesus. You know what I mean? As we know Christ, I don't think, I put it this way. They put Jesus on this slab of marble or cement or whatever it is. And they trotted him out there with Barabbas. And you got, at this point, maybe hundreds, maybe even thousands of people, but definitely hundreds of people that are shouting out crucify him, right? The biggest injustice of all time. He is God in front of his own creation. And they're saying he's guilty. Biggest injustice of all time is that same person, Jesus, going to sit there at the end of time and look at somebody who's never heard of Jesus before and just be like, "Well, sorry." - Right. And I think about Romans one, you kind of referencing one and two. Can you, Tyler, could you put Romans one, 18? And Romans one, 18 kind of talks about the whole, like we're without excuse. - Mm-hmm. - Oh, sorry. - Close words.

- 18 through 20, sorry about that. We're all without excuse 'cause we were all sinners. - Right. They knew the truth about God. This is actually verse 19, because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they have clearly seen his invisible qualities, his eternal power to the divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Actually, that verse also shows in some ways, there's ultimately a piece of this we're leaving up to God. He's the judge, not us. And so we know what we know about scripture, our faith being placed in Jesus, but ultimately he is the judge. And if he's saying, giving glimpses of, people are gonna be without excuse. I don't, I think the thing that we, again, it's more, I don't know us, right? It's like, I don't know how that plays out for some. - Well, I see us Lewis puts it that way. He's basically like, look, we only know the mechanism of the gospel. We don't know all of the parts beyond it. Is it possible that outside of praying the center prayer that people can get in heaven, it's possible? Like, there's nothing that would say like,

only the name of Jesus saves people. Paul talks about this. Like, there's only one name by which heaven and earth and men can be saved, get that. But there's a certain amount of like epistemic humility here. It's like, we don't know everything. And from what we've seen about God is he's just, so I don't think anybody's going into hell with a really valid case of being dealt with unjustly. That's where it comes to me. - That's good way of putting this like, man. - That's good. - He is a thousand times more just than I am. So I trust him. - Genesis 18, I think I think it's 18. It talks about when God is going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of how wicked they are. In Abraham at one point, he says, won't the righteous judge do what's right? And I just always feel like that really is like, that describes God's character is what matters most. And he is a righteous judge, he's just and he's going to do what's right. Whether or not we think that's right or even understand it, he is the righteous judge. He will do what's right. So I ground myself in that. That being said though, like it seems like in the New Testament, you need Jesus to be saved. Which is why missions is a big deal.

Like that's why evangelism is a big deal. It's why we need to talk to our friends about Jesus. Like we have a duty to live out. I almost feel like I'm going to pray like it all depends on God and then live like it depends on me. And the part that's up to me is-- - Where'd you get that from? - I don't know. - Did you make that up? - I did not make that up. - That's good though. - No, but I think I got to live that way because it almost seems contradictory at first. You're like, well, do I need to do anything? 'Cause God saves those that he wants to save. Yeah, you got to do something. You got to go out and tell people about Jesus. They need to confess that he's Lord. - Yeah, that's good. That's good. 'Cause at the end of the day-- - We got to do better than-- - It's better. - What's it? - They worked together. - 'Cause I thought my just thing was pretty good. - There, but clip of both, you know, that point of, at the end of the day, we're told what to do. Jesus gives us the Great Commission. It's like, you don't just squirm out of that

because you're like, but he's already gonna pick some, not pick some, predestination, free will, all these topics that are big, they're big. But at the end of the day, you're not getting out of that Great Commission. I've invited into this and I have to leave the rest up to God. Like you said, pray like it depends on God. Live like it depends on me. - Well, I just think it's weird sometimes people will be like, so you're telling me that Jesus is the only way to get into heaven. And I'm like, well, yeah. Well, I just don't, I don't worship a God like that. I don't believe in a God that could do that. And I just, I break that point. I'm like, so let me just get this straight. You disagree with the way he's doing things. It's not that you don't believe him. Well, I guess so. Okay, so it's not you're saying you don't believe in him. You just don't like the way he's doing things. - Right. - Okay, so that's the first thing. You don't agree with the way he's doing things. Who's smarter, you know, like who actually knows what they're doing as categories? You have a God and you, who would you trust more? Well, I guess I would trust God more. Okay, so then it's really not about that then, is it? It's about like what you want versus what you think is right.

And that's where we come full circle. And a lot of that, if they're honest, they're like, well, maybe you're right. Maybe I just don't like that idea. Okay, well now we're being honest. But it really has nothing to do with this overall approach to somehow that like, God does it wrong because we trust that if he's God, he knows what he's doing. - So let's get even more complex here. We're talking about trusting Jesus. That's how you are saved. That's your salvation. It's how you get to heaven, new earth, all that. What about, what about babies? And so this is a tough one. This is, this can be a real hard conversation too. What about babies, children, miscarriages? Babies that die, do they go to heaven? - Yes. - Yeah, I think it seems like it, biblically. There's not a whole lot of evidence. But second Samuel, there's a story where David commits adultery with Bathsheba. And then because of this, God actually like causes their child to die, which is extremely sad, but it's kind of a consequence of sin. It's like when sin happens, things go bad. But David in his like song that he writes after that, he's kind of crying out to God.

And he says, I know you'll not return to me speaking to his child, but I will one day be with you. I think that's pretty close to what he says. And so David at least believes he will go to be with this child. And so if he thinks that and it's in the inspired word of God, that makes me think, well, then they're so less for those who've lost a child. - Yeah, yeah. And that's another example of like a hell of a, the piece I did like, for the just piece, okay? The people wanted up in hell unjustly, like we believe that truth about God. And you think about a baby has no capacity to have accountability, right? We use the term in church, the age of accountability. At what point is a child old enough to understand? - Is that a Mennonite thing too? I thought there was like a Mennonite doctrine that says there's a certain age. - Is that right? - That's Catholic for sure. - Oh, is it? - They have a age of accountability. - Okay, what is it? I can't remember. - It's young, is it different for each culture? - I don't know. Yeah, I'm not Catholic. - What's the age of accountability?

- Tyler's gonna look this up for us. - Let's see what, when our children have-- - Seven years old. - Around seven. - Around seven. - Depending on your mental state, I'm guessing. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Well, I wonder then, I mean, it says in Romans one and two, we were just looking at you're held accountable for what you know. So it almost has something to do with like your ability to understand. - Mm-hmm. - So that's where it gets, it just gets complex because John 14, six, I'm the way of the truth in the life. No one gets to the Father except through me. Like Jesus makes it very clear. I am the way, only me, yet, there's these glimpses of like, hey, well, a baby, how does that work? And that's where you start to look and say, I might not be able to give you a point to the Bible. - Well, I don't think that means it's not through him either. I think that it's not somehow like an end around Jesus. - I think it's through Jesus that they are conducted into heaven. - It's good, yeah. - I like that. - Ephesians two, you're saved by grace through faith because of Jesus.

So if you're at an age where you can't physically have faith but it's by God's grace that you're saved, Jesus is still the thing that saves you. - Right, right, right. - That's good, I like that. I haven't heard it framed that way. It's like, hey, this isn't necessarily going around that. - See? - It's just saying like this. - Two nothing. (laughing) - I love that. So I think, again, I keep revisiting this, you know, there's a lot of stuff that can feel uncertain. And the talks, talking about babies, I know there's a lot of people watching this that have experienced miscarriages or wanting to get pregnant, have tried. And so the last thing in the world you need is to think like, Oh my gosh, well, is something like no. - Yeah. And again, sometimes that's why, like thank God, even for that passage and second Samuel to say, man David seemed to believe that he- - Yeah, that's a blessing for all people that have suffered miscarriages or early. Is it SIDS, like a sudden infant death syndrome, things like that. John Piper talks about this, that God only executes judgment on those

who have a natural capacity to either see as glory you understand as well. So infants lack that capacity. - Yeah. - And apparently up until seven years old. So I wish I had taken advantage of that. You know? - Like it's your free seven year old life. Like I can do whatever I want. But it is just a good reminder to like, there's pieces we try to understand, but that we have to lean into what we do know. And that God is just, and if we believe that's true, some of these pieces we have to trust that he's gonna handle them the right way. We just won't have all those answers. So before I wrap us up, are there any questions, any questions you wish I'd asked, anything that you wanted to dive into more with this topic at all? - I mean, I have a story. Maybe we can cut this, but I have a story that I think I'll start with that. - Don't do it, by the way. - Yeah, really selling this one. - So there's this story of these two babies, and they're in the womb together. And the one baby says to the other baby, "Hey, do you believe that there's something

after, do you believe there's life after delivery?" And the other baby's like, "Yeah, for sure." And the first baby's like, "That's crazy. That's ridiculous. No one has ever seen anything after delivery." Like, I have no, there's no evidence for that. And the other baby says, like, "Well, I mean, maybe it's just gonna be different out there. Like maybe we'll walk with our legs and we'll see with our eyes." And the other baby's like, "No, like we need the umbilical cord." That's what gives us our support, our life and all that. Like, we can't walk with the umbilical cord. And the other one's like, "Maybe it's just gonna be different. Maybe we just don't. We don't know." And also, mother's gonna be out there. I'm sure she'll take care of us. And then the first baby's like, "You believe in mother? You think mother's real?" - That's so interesting. - And the first baby's like, "Yeah, of course." Like, mother's all around us. She gives us life. She's in us. She's everything to me. And the other baby's like, "That's, I've never heard from mother. I've never seen a mother.

That can't be mother." And the first baby's like, "Well, if you get really quiet sometimes, you can just, you can hear her and you can feel her presence." And I think that's sort of a picture of like, when we think about the afterlife, that's kind of how I think about how we know God. You know, we may not know what life after delivery is, but you just kind of have to have faith that like, there is a God who's sustaining us now and he'll be with us then. - Wow, that's cool. - And I love that. The whole idea of God is there. You know, I guess being a huge source of that comfort. - Because here is heartbeat, yeah. - So there's a lot we don't know about after death, after life, or am I saying? There's a lot we don't know about life after death. - Just a lot we don't know. - There's a lot we don't know. That's kind of what I'm saying right now. - But there are a lot of things we do know on how to have courage and faith in this life about God. So, but there's just one question. Like, if trusting in Jesus, that's the ticket, man. That's how we gain salvation. But it begs the question, can I lose my salvation? We don't have time to get into that right now. So that's our next topic.

We're gonna get into that in a little bit. But man, that's a huge piece of this. Can I lose my salvation? Guys, thanks so much for just all your thoughts on this topic, man. Been a great conversation with you. Can I lose my salvation? Did I read my Bible enough? Did I spend enough time with God? Half of the passages seem to indicate it's your choice. And then the other half of them seem to indicate like, no, you have no choice. You are sealed and done, deal. - How is it possible that there's an unforgivable sin? - But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness. - So it's like God, from the beginning of time, had specific people in mind. But do we really have free will if he's also predestining us? - This is an eternal decision I made to follow Jesus. I just wanna make sure I didn't do something to mess it up. (upbeat music) (dramatic music) [BLANK_AUDIO]